As it currently stands, this question is not a good fit for our Q&A format. We expect answers to be supported by facts, references, or expertise, but this question will likely solicit debate, arguments, polling, or extended discussion. If you feel that this question can be improved and possibly reopened, visit the help center for guidance.
Closed 10 years ago.
With the interest of creating a roguelike RPG (such as Nethack, Rogue, and ADOM), which programming language would be most suitable and why?
With the language that you choose, be sure to list any libraries or facets of the language that make it particularly well-suited.
Way back in the day I tried to write Roguelike games using QuickBASIC out of all things (it was 1988.) Not the recommended approach...
There are still some development circles out there. Here's an FAQ on Roguelike Development and also a blog dedicated to the same.
My language of use (I'm trying to create roguelike too) is Python, because:
It's high level programming language, I don't need to think about memory allocation all the time, etc, but keep my mind on algorithms.
There's tons of useful libraries for almost everything. Recently I've found TDL/libtcod which can be useful for roguelike development.
With bindings you can easily use C/C++ libraries or even write few critical functions in C/C++, and use them.
It's the most readable programming language I've ever seen.
While programming in Python I've learned to use internal documentation. It's very helpful thing, I just read my code few months later and I still know what it's doing.
That's a very personal choice as always :-)
I wrote my Roguelike game (Tyrant) in Java for the following reasons:
Very portable (even with graphics)
Garbage collection / memory management
Lots of good free / open source libraries available (helpful for algorithms, data structures and manipulating save game files etc.)
It's a statically typed language - this has performance and robustness benefits which I judged to be worth the additional coding complexity
I wanted to hone my Java skills more generally for use in other projects
EDIT: For those interested it is open source, all code is available at SourceForge
Well I've made a couple roguelikes in C, spending a fair amount of time at roguebasin, which is a great site for anything related to roguelike development.
As for what language you should use, I don't really see it making a huge difference. I pick C because of the portability, and a lot of libraries work well with it.. But an object oriented language can clean up some things that you may not want to keep track of.
There aren't any languages that I would consider to be specifically greater than the rest for roguelikes. If you're making it graphical, you may prefer something that has that built-in, such as flash / silverlight. But even then there are libraries for any other languages that bring them to about the same degree of difficulty in that regard.
So I'd say take a language you know and like, or that you don't know and want to learn..
Most of these answers are great, but there's something to be said for the combined power of object-oriented stuff and low-level commands that can be abused in C++. If you're looking for some inspiration, the C sourcecode to NetHack is widely available and documented well enough that you can certainly poke around to learn some things. That said, it's a huge project that's been growing for decades, and not everything is as clean as you're going to want things for your own project - don't get roped into making poor design choices based off of what you find in NetHack.
Honestly, though, in terms of what you use it probably doesn't matter at all - though I'd highly recommend using an OO language. There's so much crap to handle in a roguelike (heck, any CRPG really) that OOP is the easiest way of staying sane.
The original nethack was written in C, and the source is available if you want to get some ideas about how it was written, and the challenges you may find which might be a good way to start deciding on a language.
My first question would be whether the game is going to have a web based UI or be some kind of console/window affair like the original Rogue-like games? If the former I would say that any language you're comfortable with would be a good choice. Ruby on Rails, Python/Django, PHP/CakePHP, etc. would all be great.
But if the answer is the latter, this is a game that you want people to be able to download and install locally, I'm going to go with Java. It's a great language with no memory management for you to deal with. It achieves very high performance thanks to just-in-time compilation and optimization, and it has an extremely rich library to help you with data structures, Swing makes for some really beautiful UIs, and the 2D library allows for the most rich cross-platform rendering outside of PostScript. It also has the availability across Windows, Mac OS X, and Linux that you're not going to get from some other choices.
Finally, distribution of your application is easy via Java Web Start as well, so people can download and install the game with just a couple of clicks once they have Java and keep it on their machine to run as long as they like.
For making any game, any language will be right if :
you can use it (you are able to use it, by knowledge or if it's easy enough to learn right now for you or your team)
it produce applications that runs on your client's computer
it can easily produce applications that runs fast enough for your game's needs.
I think that for a Rogue-Like, any language you know will be right as far as it runs on you target. Performances are not really a problem in this kind of game. World generation can require high performance if your world generation is really complex though...
just go with something that will handle the low-level details for you. whatever you know should work.
hey, they can write one in javascript.
I recommend Actionscript for those games.
You could consider Silverlight.
It sits on top of C# and .Net so theres not much need to worry about memory management. With SL you'll get built in support for scene graph type rendering - culling of things not on screen, Key board, mouse events, clicks on objects etc.
There's an initial learning curve, but I find it's a great environment to work in.
Related
Closed. This question is off-topic. It is not currently accepting answers.
Want to improve this question? Update the question so it's on-topic for Stack Overflow.
Closed 12 years ago.
Improve this question
I am doing my dissertation project on NP-Hard Problems: I am going to implement various algorithms for problems such as the partition, the subset sum, the knapsack, etc and then compare the results, the running time, etc. Also, I am going to see what happens with the algorithms when you modify the problem (how does the algorithm behave on the reduced problem, etc).
Now I picked this topic as my project because I am interested in theoretical computer science but I am also not sure if I want to go on as an academic/researcher or join a company/startup and this project has both a theoretical and a practical (actual coding) side.
My question is, which programming language should I use? Should I stick to what I feel more familiar with (Java and maybe Python), or should I go with the web languages (HTML, CSS, PHP, RoR, etc), having in mind that web development skills are on high demand nowadays?
EDIT: HTML and CSS would be obviously used just for the UI.
I want my project to be something that will impress in an interview (for either a job or a masters course) and I am not confident that "yet another project in Java" can do that. I understand that as long as the work on it is good and the result is satisfactory I should be ok but if, let's say, using Ruby can give me some points I am totally going with that. In the same time, I understand that deciding which language to use is part of the project so I am not willing to complicate things just to try and look cool.
Thanks in advance!
EDIT: In case this changes any of the answers, this is a undergrad. dissertation project, not a PhD one.
First of all this is a subjective question, not perfectly suitable for SO, but we forgive you :)
Contrary to popular opinion here (looking at the previous answers), if you're trying to solve NP-Hard problems, I would definitely not write the programs in C or C++. Mainly because dynamic programming methods tend to look like absolute dog poop when written in low-level languages. For example, here's someone's dynamic programming solution to the knapsack problem: http://www.joshuarobinson.net/docs/knapsack.html.
It's well-written and well-formed, but barely readable simply due to the sheer amount of malloc, memcpy, and free you need to do. Go with Java or Python, no question about it. You want people to actually read (and maybe even enjoy?) your dissertation, I would assume.
Don't write it in PHP or Ruby because those languages aren't particularly applicable to computer science theory. With that said, if you're applying for a web-dev job and you're trying to impress your future employees with a knapsack problem or dynamic programming NP-Hard solvers, it's like shooting a sparrow with a cannonball.
If your project's subject is impressive, no one will care what language it's in. Do it in the language you feel is appropriate for the task. Knowing how to make the appropriate language choice and defending that choice should be more impressive than "OMG I used RoR XSL ActionScript CSS!!!"
Also, how long do anticipate this project will take? If you go with a language that's flashy and trendy today, do you know it will still be cool and popular when this project wraps up? Just saying in another way, popularity is not the reason to choose the language for something like this.
if you can invest effort and time, then i recommend c/c++. it will be an impressive add-on skill.
My language of preference would be Python. You could use Django and, in my opinion, it would be very applicable to things that are being done in the industry (especially with startups). Plus, you can't beat Python when it comes to readability and speed of development.
I would have thought that Python would be doing too much clever stuff under the hood to really be able to measure relative performance accurately.
Wouldn't it be better to use a lower-level language like C? Employers would respect you more for that than using something because it's "cool".
The languages you know look fine to me. The old saw is that a CS PhD makes you unemployable anyway, so I wouldn't worry about it. :-)
The other ones you mentioned are mostly specialized web presentation languages. I'm not real sure how one even goes about implementing the knapsack problem using CSS...
Well, as much as this might look fine on the web page, it seems to me that Java would do a better job doing what you need.
PHP, HTML and CSS knowledge is good for job finding, but not applicable very much on the subject you picked.
Also, I noticed a bunch of answers, so I guess this is a question very much related to personal taste and opinion. Hm... You asked for it, anyways ;)
Since you're already familiar with Python, I'd recommend using it. You can use the popular scipy and numpy libraries for your project. You'll probably find something of use in them.
That would be the core, or backend part of your project. When this part is finished, you should think about polish and presentation. You don't want to have an impressive looking presentation with wrong calculations.
As it currently stands, this question is not a good fit for our Q&A format. We expect answers to be supported by facts, references, or expertise, but this question will likely solicit debate, arguments, polling, or extended discussion. If you feel that this question can be improved and possibly reopened, visit the help center for guidance.
Closed 10 years ago.
This is marked as a subjective question, I hope I won't get too many down votes though.
LV seems to offer a nice graphic alternative to traditional text based programming. As I understand, it's not a just-virtualization/data acquisition programming language. Nonetheless, it seems to have that paradigm pegged to its creator's name.
My question comes up because it doesn't seem to be widely used for multi-purpose applications. I'm not a LV-expert of any kind, I'm more like a learner. I'm still getting used to LV.
Labview is fantastic if you have National Instruments hardware, and want to do something like acquire, plot and log the data.
When you start interfacing to custom devices the wiring between modules gets complicated having to do all the string manipulation work for input and output to a device.
At my place of work, we found that we got annoyed with having to make massive, complicated VI's to interface to devices and started writing them in .NET and interfacing them to Labview.
In the end we ended up scrapping Labview all together and using the NI Measurement Studio for Visual Studio to give us all the lovely looking NI controls (waveform plot, tank, gauges, switches etc) with the flexibility of C#.
In summary, even with a couple of 24" screens, sometimes the wiring for Labview code can get too complex and becomes impossible to comment, debug, and make extensible for any future changes. I suggest taking a look at Measurement Studio for Visual Studio and using your favourite .NET language with the pretty NI controls.
My two experiences with "graphic alternative[s] to traditional text based programming" have been dreadful. I find such languages to be slow to use, hard to edit, and inexpressive. Debugging them is a nightmare. And they offer no real advantages.
To be sure, it has been quite a long time since I looked at one, but the opinions of others I've asked about them have been only luke warm, so I have never taken the time to look again. Reasons to look again are welcome and will be taken on board...
Labview can be used to author large, complex software projects. Labview is unquestionably much more fun to use than a syntax based language. I have programmed mathematically dense, dynamic simulations using labview. Newer versions of Labview include alot of exciting features, especially for utilizing multiple processors. I like Labview very much. But I don't recommend it to anyone.
Unfortunately, it's an absolute nightmare for anything other than simple acquisition and display. It may one day be sufficiently developed to be considered as a viable alternative to text based languages. However, the developers at NI have consistently opted to ignore the three fundamental problems that plague labview.
1) It is unstable and riddled with bugs. There are thousands of bugs that have been posted to the labview support forums that are yet to be fixed. Some of these are quite serious, such as memory leaks, or mathematical errors in basic functions.
2) The documentation is atrocious. More often than not, when you look for help with a labview function in the local help file you'll find a sentence that merely restates the name of the item you are trying to find some detail on. e.g. A user looks up the help file on the texture filter mode setting and the only thing written in the help file is "Texture Filter Mode- selects the mode used for texture filtering." Gee, thanks. That clears things right up, doesn't it? The problem goes much deeper in that; quite often, when you ask a technical representative from national instruments to provide critical details about labview functionality or the specific behavior of mathematical functions, they simply don't know how the functions in their own library work. This may sound like an exaggeration, but trust me, it's not.
3) While it's not impossible to keep graphical code clean and well documented, Labview is designed to make these tasks both difficult and inefficient. In order to keep your code from becoming a tangled, confusing mess, you must routinely (every few operations) employ structures like clusters, and sub-vis and giant type defined controls (which can stretch over multiple screens in a large project). These structures eat memory and destroy performance by forcing labview to make multiple copies of data in memory and perform gratuitous operations- all for the sake of keeping the graphical diagram from looking like rainbow colored spaghetti with no comments or text anywhere in sight. Programming in labview is like playing pictionary with the devil. Imagine your giant software project written as a wall sized flowchart with no words on it at all. Now imagine that all the lines cross each other a thousand times so that tracing the data flow is completely impossible. You have just envisioned the most natural and most efficient way to program in labview.
Labview is cool. Labview is getting better with each new release. If National Instruments keeps improving it, it will be great one day as a general programming language. Right now, it's an extremely bad choice as a software development platform for large or logically complex projects.
I **have been writing in LabVIEW for almost 20 years now. I develop automated test systems. I have developed, RF, Vison, high speed digital and many different flavors of mixed signal test systems. I was a "C" programmer before I switched to LabVIEW.
It's true that you can build some programs quickly in LabVIEW, but just like any other language it takes a lot of training to learn to build a large application that is clean easy to maintain with reusable code. In 20 years I have never had a LabVIEW bug stop me from finishing a project.
Back in the day, NIWEEK would have a software shootout every year. LabVIEW and LabWINDOWS (NI's version of "C") programmers would both be given the same problem and have a race to see which group finished first. Each and every year all the LabVIEW programmers were done way before the 1st LabWINDOWs person finished. I have challenged many of my dedicated text based programming friends to shootouts and they all admit they don't stand a chance, even if I let them define the software problem.
So, I feel LabVIEW is a great programming tool. It's definitely the way to go if you’re interfacing with any type of NI hardware. It's not the answer for everything but I’m sure there are many people not using it just because they don’t consider LabVIEW a “real programming language”. After all, we just wire a bunch of blocks together right? I do find it funny how many text based programmers snub there noses at it as they are so proud of the mess of text code they have created that only they can understand. A good programmer in any language should write code that others can easily read. Writing overly complex code that is impossible to follow does not make the programmer a genius. It means the programmer is a “compliator”(someone who can take a simple problem and complicate it). I believe in the KISS principle (KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID).
Anyway, there’s my two cents worth!**
I thought LabVIEW was a dream for FPGA programming. Independent executable blocks just... work. In general, I use LabVIEW for various tasks interfacing with my DAQ and FPGA hardware, but that's about it. It seems (again to me) that this is LabVIEW's strong point and the reason it was built, but outside that arena it feels "cumbersome." As far as getting things done, it's like any other language with a learning curve - once you figure it out it's not too bad for getting work done. I've seen several people give up before that thinking the learning curve was permanent or something.
Picking up a 30" monitor made a huge difference.
I know one thing that people dislike is the version control integration.
Edit: LabVIEW/hardware is hella expensive for "just for fun" use. I dropped $10K on their hardware (student prices) and got the software for free from school for making toys around the house.
Our company is using LabVIEW for the last 10 years for measuring, monitoring and reporting of our subject (trains).
Recently we have started using LabVIEW as GUI for databases with lots of data, the powers of LabVIEW with the recent new features (Classes, XControls) allows use to create these kinds of GUIs for a fraction of development costs at other platforms. While we don't need external programmers at consultancy rate.
Ton
I first started using Labview in a college physics lab. Initially, I thought it was slow and cumbersome when compared to other text-based languages. It was too difficult to create complex logic and code became sloppy real fast (wires everywhere).
Then, a few years later, I learned about using sub-vi's and bundles. What a difference! At this point, I was using labview for very high level functions. I was taking raw input from a camera, using all kinds of image filters and processing to ultimately parse out the lines in a road so that a vehicle could drive itself down this road with no driver - it was for the DARPA URBAN CHALLENGE. I was also generating maps from text waypoint data, making high-level parsing functions, and a slew of other applications that had nothing to do with processing data from input devices. It was really a lot of fun. and FAST.
After leaving college, I am now back to using text-based languages. I've been using: PHP, Javascript, VBA, C#, VBscript, VB.net, Matlab, Epson RC+, Codeigniter, various API's, and I'm sure some others. I often get very frustrated in the amount of syntax I have to memorize in order to program with any significant speed. I find it annoying to have to switch schools of thought based on the language I am using... when all programming languages essentially do the same thing! I need a second monitor just to have the help up at all times so i can find the syntax for the same functions in different languages. I miss Labview very much, it's too bad it's so expensive otherwise I would use it for everything.
Graphical based programming I think has a huge potential. By not being constrained by syntax, you can focus on logic instead of code. Labview itself may still be in its infancy in terms of support and debugging, but I believe conceptually it beats out the competition. It's simple a more intuitive way to program.
We use LabVIEW for running our end of line test equipment and it is ideal for data acquisition and control. Typically measuring 15 to 80 differential voltages and controlling environmental chambers, mass flow controllers and various serial devices LabVIEW is more than capable.
Interfacing with custom devices can be simplified greatly by using the NI instrument driver wizard to create reusable VI's, interfacing with custom dll's if needed. On a number of projects we have created such drivers for custom hardware and once created there are reusable in future projects with no modification.
Using event driven structures user interfaces are responsive and we regularly use LabVIEW applications to interface with a database.
Whatever programming environment you choose it's the process of designing the application that matters most. I agree that you can create some really horrible and unreadable block diagrams in LabVIEW but then you can also create unreadable code in Visual studio. With just a little thought and planning a LabVIEW block diagram can be made to fit on a single 24" monitor with plenty of space to add comments.
I would use LabVIEW over Visual Studio for most projects.
But people do use LabView for purposes other than data acquisition and virtualization. Of course LabVIEW is mainly used in labs and production environments because it is (or was) one of the main NI's customer target.
However you can do a lots of various things with LabVIEW, like programming a robot that would perform a lot of image analysis, and then tweet the results. Have a look at videos from NI Week 2009 on you-tube, and you'll see how powerful this tool is. For instance, there is possibility to write code and deploy it to ARM MCUs (see this Dev Monkey article from 2009.08.10).
And finally check this LabVIEW DIY group
I have been using LabVIEW for about two years for developing automation. If given due care and proper design we sure can develop maintainable and really good looking application in LabVIEW.I think this is the same for all the other languages out there. I have seen equally bad code in LabVIEW primarily from people who use it only to develop quick and dirty working automation. IMHO Graphical programming is a lot easier to code and understand if rightly done. But that said I feel text based programming 'feels' more powerful!
LabVIEW is primarily marketed for industrial automation, has inherent support for lot of NI hardware and you can get the third party hardwares working with it pretty quickly. I think that is the reason you see it only in automation field. Moreover it is pretty costly and you are locked down with NI as you do cannot even open your code if you do not buy the software from them!
I've been thinking about this question for decades (yes, since 1989...)
Like all programming languages, LabVIEW is a high-level tool used to manipulate the flow of electrons. Unless you are a purist and refuse to use anything other than a breadboard and wires; transistors, integrated circuits and programming languages are probably a good thing if you wish to build something of any consequence.
But like all high-level tools, just wielding one does not make you a professional craftsman. Back in the day of soldering irons, op-amps and UARTs it required a large amount of careful study before you could create a system that actually functioned. The modern realm of text-based languages is so overly dominated by syntax that the programmer must get it just right before it will compile and run. In order to write code that works, the programmer must increase their skill level to create systems much larger than "Hello World".
LabVIEW is not dominated by syntax, but by Data Flow. Back in the day, reaching for your flow charting template and developing the diagram of a well-balanced information system was the art and beauty part of the job. Only after you had the reviewed flowchart in hand would you even consider slogging through the drudgery of punching out the code. (yes... punch cards)
LabVIEW is a development system that allows the programmer to use flow charting tools to diagram the complete information system and press "run"..... LabVIEW "punches out the code" and compiles it for you. No need to fight through the syntax of text language A or language B.
With such a powerful tool, novices can build large, working programs rapidly -- implying some level of professional craftsmanship since it runs at all. However, if the system does not perform elegantly, or the source code diagram is a mess, it is not the fault of LabVIEW.
People often point to "LabVIEW is only good for developing large data acquisition systems." Perhaps those people should consider the professionalism of the scientists and engineers that are working in data acquisition. If they know enough to get the actual wires right for the sensors and transducers, it may be a good bet that they are expert at developing LabVIEW wiring diagrams as well.
I do use LabView at home, as it is part of Lego Mindstorms, which my son loves. And I really like the way to compose systems like this.
However, in my work (embedded systems), it is generally to restrictive. But also here, I'm trying to move up in abstraction:
- control and state behavior: Model based design (i.e. Rhapsody)
- data algorithms etc. Simulink
Sometimes a graphical model can require more clicks than a piece of code. But this also includes the work a good programmer need to do in design & documentation; not just the code typing. The graphical notation takes many hassles away and is generally much faster if the tool is powerful enough for the complexity at hand. So I expect these kinds of tools will gain more popularity in the next years as they mature and people get familiar with them.
I have used LabView for some 10 years. It's brilliant for Scientific prorgamming ie like Matlab or Simulink but 10 times better. If you are having problems then you are doing something wrong. It takes time to learn like any language. As for using .Net instead - are these people even on the same planet? Why would you go to the trouble of writing eveything from scratch when you can say pull up an FFT etc and use alread written code. .NET is fine for simple programs but not so good for Scientific processing. yes you can do it but not without oodles of add-ons for graphics etc. Prorgamming in G is far easier than text based for Scientific problems. You can of course program in c if you are interfacing and use the dll. Now there are things that I would not use LabView for - speech recognition for example may be a bit messy at present. More to the point though, why do people like programming in outdated text form when there is an easy alternative. It is as if people want to make things complicated so as to justify their job in some way. Simplify Simplify!
Somebody said that LabView is only sued in the Automation field. Simply not write at all. It has applications in Digital Signal Processing,Control Systems,Communications, Web Based,Mathematics,Image Processing and so on. It started as a data aquisition method and they invented the name Virtual Instrumentation but it has gone far beyond that now. It is a Scientific programming language with a second to none graphical interface. It is way beyond Simulink and if you like Matlab then it has a type of Matlab scripting built in for those that like such ways of programming. It is evolving all the time. The one thing I found difficult was writing code for the Compact Rio - tricky but far easier than the alternative. It's expensive but you get a quality product. I personally have not found any bugs in ordinary programming. It is an engineers language but anybody could use it to program.
As it currently stands, this question is not a good fit for our Q&A format. We expect answers to be supported by facts, references, or expertise, but this question will likely solicit debate, arguments, polling, or extended discussion. If you feel that this question can be improved and possibly reopened, visit the help center for guidance.
Closed 10 years ago.
As an artist and musician, I often want to sit down and just let the code roll like a piece of free-form poetry, but I've found that doesn't work as well as when I have a set goal in mind. I've been experimenting lately with setting up tiny, fun goals for myself, not unlike how an artist would sketch a quick still-life, but I wonder...
What do others do when they want to code for fun, without the bondage of an already-committed project?
Design work, I find, flows much easier than just coding. I find that coding is often more of just implementation of a good design; I really like to just sit down with a pad of paper and a pen (and likely a bottle of wine) and work out an interesting design.
Project Euler is where I'm having fun at now. I can go at my own pace and work on the problems that interest me. Also, work in any language I choose.
Write documentation when coding doesn't come easy - coding will quickly seem much more appealing!
Going for a walk outside.
I tend to map my idea or build a structure in a MindMapping tool like MindMeister. And it's great for a team because it can be edited in real time by multiple persons!
I like to pick up a new language and learn how to express ideas in it. This usually has the benefit of showing me what I like and don't like about the languages I currently use. I usually pick some little tool project I've been wanting to do. Using the new language angle get's me motivated
My most recent 'new language' is Scala, in this case it will likely become a langue I use.
I like writing on whiteboards. Great for db diagrams, task lists, feature lists, (other lists,) random ideas, notes, etc. (db diagrams being the biggie for me)
Python is great for just getting things going on an idea and having the language (usually) behave like you would expect.
While it may have its drawbacks, it sounds like a great fit for what you are describing.
So to answer your question, the Python Challenge is entertaining and often gets me thinking about little things that would be fun to code, probably because it exposes you to different types of problems.
I like to code.
I like to find something interesting, code it and then see it works.
It does not have to be a project per see, it's good enough if it does something, like use Google api to get picasa albums, change song in iTunes or get details of current iTunes song, automate downloading of document from web site that is behind login and requires cookies and all that stuff, data parser in python, simple app on Mac, core data application, google codejam problems, topcoder.com problems ...
I like to learn new features of some language or some new language/technology/patterns/tool :-)
Usually I will work in Photoshop for a while. Get creative and try to come up with a new design that's not constrained by any code. Maybe even find something inspiring on the web for some new design ideas... then try to implement the design in code. That's the fun and challenging bit.
Use the REPL.
You figure out broadly the sort of thing you need to do - what APIs you need to use, what data structures you need to handle - and then prod them interactively until they start making sense. A ton of languages I use now have REPLs: Ruby, Python, Scala, Java (BeanShell, or JRuby/Jython etc.), C# ('csharp'), PHP (Facebook have made a REPL for it), Smalltalk (GNU gst) and, obviously, LISP/Scheme.
As it currently stands, this question is not a good fit for our Q&A format. We expect answers to be supported by facts, references, or expertise, but this question will likely solicit debate, arguments, polling, or extended discussion. If you feel that this question can be improved and possibly reopened, visit the help center for guidance.
Closed 10 years ago.
I work with many different models and simulations. Some of the older models and simulations are written in FORTRAN. Some of those models have been converted to C++, but the current trend is to create these models using MATLAB/SIMULINK. From a computer science perspective I have always felt MATLAB/SIMULINK was not a good solution. What language do you use to create models and simulations and why?
I would always try to use the language that is provided by the best modeling and simulation tool (or library, if you like) to do the job for me.
And this question can really only be answered by taking into account what kinds of models you want to implement. Continuous (e.g. ODEs), discrete (e.g. StateCharts, Petri Nets), or a combination (i.e. a hybrid model, as can be implemented with Simulink+StateFlow)? There are various tools for each kind of model.
Another important aspect would be the domain in which you are working. Simulink has pretty extensive libraries for electrical engineering, finance, or computational biology (most of them are included in additional packages, though) - if you work in one of those fields, there might simply be no better (i.e. complete, valid) component library. The same goes for other commercial simulation packages, such as AnyLogic, Arena, etc. There might also be some open-source simulation tools, depending on your modeling problem.
Finally, you might prefer a specific programming language over another, and you might have additional requirements, e.g. support for
Optimization (of model parameters)
Validation
Output analysis (statistics, plots, statistical tests)
Support for parallel and distributed simulation
Model checking
...
So I'm currently working with Java with the well-known advantages - reasonably fast, good support for multi-threading, relatively simple to use etc. But if 'reasonably fast' is not fast enough, there might be no option but going down one level of abstraction :-)
I also work with a lot of legacy code, most of it in Fortran. I really don't mind using Fortran - all the modern compilers allow variable names greater than the old and silly 6 character limit. Also, with Fortran 95, you can even do OOP if you feel that your modifications to the existing codebase would benefit.
Also, there are very good code editors for Fortran, which isn't always the case for more specialized script languages.
C++ has the great disadvantage of memory considerations. I have been programming C/C++ for 20+ years now, and I still forget to delete objects and properly fill in destructors.
On a final note, if you're using Windows, there is a Fortran.NET compiler (I think from Lahey-Fujitsu?) if you want to move your Fortran to a managed environment.
Good luck!
SIMULA of course !! :-)
What I've gotten out of MATLAB is it's ability to let me quickly prototype an algorithm. I can really get a good feel for the data by plotting it and using the built in statistics functions. When trying something new out, I can do something quick and dirty to get some initial results, then go back and clean things up to refine my results. With compiled languages, there's a lot more I have to do just to get the simulation to run. With MATLAB, I spend more time thinking about the real problem, and less about compiling, linking, memory management, etc.
However, there are many problems that MATLAB is just ill-equipped to solve. For large data sets, a compiled language with user defined data structures is almost certainly necessary.
Particle physics has been moving to C++ and python. This is not universal, and probably wouldn't even be close were it not for the ubiquity of ROOT.
Root's use of cint means you needed bother with memory management when you're dinking around with a new idea, it's capacity to run compiled allows you to have speed, the ability to mix the modes is very helpful, and the bindings for python and other RAD languages allow for great flexibility.
In a very real sense, this comes down to an endorsement of roland's point.
you can use s-funcuin block for linking fortran(c,c++) with matlab.
Closed. This question is opinion-based. It is not currently accepting answers.
Want to improve this question? Update the question so it can be answered with facts and citations by editing this post.
Closed last month.
Improve this question
Summary:
Can I program a "thick
client" game in C without reinventing
wheels, or should I just bite the
bullet and use some library or SDK?
I'm a moderate C programmer and am not
afraid to work with pointers, data
structures, memory locations, etc. if
it will give me the control I need to
make a great "thick-client" game.
However, I'm thinking of eschewing
high-level languages & frameworks for
the sake of power and control, not
ease of use.
I'm interesting in tinkering with a 2D fighting/platforming game as a side project sometime. I'm primarily a Linux server-side programmer with experience in Python, Ruby and PHP. I know that there are excellent frameworks in some of these languages, like PyGame. I am also aware of the success people have had with stuff like Air and .NET... but I have some concerns:
Performance: Scripting languages are notoriously slow. If I'm making a real-time game, I want it to be as snappy as possible.
Huge binaries: Using frameworks like .NET or scripting languages like Ruby often result in big CLRs or libraries that you wouldn't otherwise need. The game I want to make will be small and simple--I don't want its CLR to be bigger than the game itself!
Extra stuff: Honestly, I just don't like the idea of inheriting some big game library's baggage if I can wrap my head around my own code better.
I'm asking this question because I know I'm very susceptible to Not Invented Here Syndrome. I always want to program it myself, and I'm sure it wastes a lot of time. However, this works out for me remarkably often--for example, instead of using Rails (a very big web project framework with an ORM and GUI toolkit baked in), I used an array of smaller Ruby tools like rack and sequel that fit together beautifully.
So, I turn to you, SO experts. Am I being naive? Here's how I see it:
Use C
Cons
Will probably make me hate programming
High risk of reinventing wheels
High risk of it taking so long that I lose interest
Pros
Tried & true - most A-list games are done in C (is this still true today?)
High level of control over memory management, speed, asset management, etc., which I trust myself to learn to handle
No cruft
Use framework or SDK
Cons
Risk of oversized deliverable
Dependent on original library authors for all facets of game development--what if there isn't a feature I want? I'll have to program it myself, which isn't bad, but partially defeats the purpose of using a high-level framework in the first place
High risk of performance issues
Pros
MUCH faster development time
Might be easier to maintain
No time wasted reinventing common paradigms
What else can I add to this list? Is it a pure judgment call, or can someone seal the deal for me? Book suggestions welcome.
I believe you are working under a fallacy.
There are several frameworks out there specifically for game programming --- written by people with much experience with the complication of game design, almost certainly more tha you do.
In other words, you have a "High risk of performance issues" if you DON'T use a framework.
My current thinking is:
If you want to learn to program, start making the game engine from the base elements upwards (even implementing basic data structures - lists, maps, etc). I've done this once, and while it was a learning experience, I made many mistakes, and I wouldn't do this a second time around. However for learning how to program as well as making something cool and seeing results I'd rate this highly.
If you want to make a proper game, use whatever libraries that you want and design all of the game infrastructure yourself. This is what I'm doing now, and I'm using all of the nice things like STL, ATL/WTL, Boost, SQLite, DirectX, etc. So far I've learnt a lot about the middle/game logic aspect of the code and design.
If you just want to make a game with artists and other people collaborating to create a finished product, use one of the existing engines (OGRE, Irrlicht, Nebula, Torque, etc) and just add in your game logic and art.
One final bit of wisdom I've learnt is that don't worry about the Not Invented Here syndrome. As I've come to realise that other libraries (such as STL, Boost, DirectX, etc) have an order of magnitude (or three) more man-hours of development time in them, far more than I could ever spend on that portion of the game/engine. Therefore the only reason to implement these things yourself is if you want to learn about them.
I would recomend you try pyglet.
It has good performance, as it utilizes opengl
Its a compact all-in-one library
It has no extra dependencies besides python
Do some tests, see if you can make it fast enough for you. Only if you prove to yourself that it's not move to a lower level. Although, I'm fairly confident that python + pyglet can handle it... at worst you'll have to write a few C extensions.
Today, I believe you are at a point where you can safely ignore the performance issue unless you're specifically trying to do something that pushes the limits. If your game is, say, no more complicated than Quake II, then you should choose tools and libraries that let you do the most for your time.
Why did I choose Quake II? Because running in a version compiled for .NET, it runs with a software renderer at a more than acceptable frame rate on a current machine. (If you like - compare MAME which emulates multiple processors and graphics hardware at acceptable rates)
You need to ask yourself if you are in this to build an engine or to build a game. If your purpose is to create a game, you should definitely look at an established gaming engine. For 2D game development, look at Torque Game Builder. It is a very powerful 2D gaming engine/SDK that will put you into production from day 1. They have plenty of tools that integrate with it, content packs, and you get the full source code if you want to make changes and/or learn how it works. It is also Mac OSX compatible and has Linux versions in the community.
If you are looking for something on the console side, they have that too.
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned XNA. Its a framework built around DirectX for doing managed DirectX programming while removing a lot of the fluff and verbosity of lower level DirectX programming.
Performance-wise, for most 2D and 3D game tasks, especially building something like a fighting game, this platform works very well. Its not as fast as if you were doing bare metal DirectX programming, but it gets you very close, and in a managed environment, no less.
Another cool benefit of XNA is that most of the code can be run on an Xbox 360 and can even be debugged over the network connection was the game runs on the Xbox. XNA games are now allowed to be approved by the Xbox Live team for distribution and sale on Xbox Live Arcade as well. So if you're looking to take the project to a commercial state, you might have am available means of distribution at your disposal.
Like all MS development tools, the documentation and support is first rate, and there is a large developer community with plenty of tutorials, existing projects, etc.
Do you want to be able to play your game on a console? Do you want to do it as a learning experience? Do you want the final product to be cross platform? Which libraries have you looked into so far?
For a 2d game I don't think performance will be a problem, I recommend going with something that will get you results on screen in the shortest amount of time. If you have a lot of experience doing Python then pyGame is a good choice.
If you plan on doing some 3d games in the future, I would recommend taking a look at Ogre (http://www.ogre3d.org). It's a cross platform 3d graphics engine that abstracts away the graphics APIs. However for a 2d project it's probably overkill.
The most common implementation language for A-list games today is C++, and a lot of games embed a scripting language (such as Python or Lua) for game event scripting.
The tools you'd use to write a game have a lot to do with your reasons for writing it, and with your requirements. This is no different from any other programming project, really. If it's a side project, and you're doing it on your own, then only you can assess how much time you have to spend on this and what your performance requirements are.
Generally speaking, today's PCs are fast enough to run 2D platformers written in scripting languages. Using a scripting language will allow you to prototype things faster and you'll have more time to tweak the gameplay. Again, this is no different than with any other project.
If you go with C++, and your reasons don't have to be more elaborate than "because I want to," I would suggest that you look at SDL for rendering and audio support. It will make things a little bit easier.
If you want to learn the underlying technologies (DirectX, or you want to write optimized blitters for some perverse reason) then by all means, use C++.
Having said all that, I would caution you against premature optimization. For a 2D game, you'll probably be better off going with Python and PyGame first. I'd be surprised if those tools will prove to be inadequate on modern PCs.
As to what people have said about C/C++/Python, I'm a game developer and my company encourages C. Not b/c C++ is bad, but because badly written C++ is poison for game development due to it's difficulty to read/debug compared to C. (C++ gives benefits when used properly, but let a junior guy make some mistakes with it and your time sink is huge)
As to the actual question:
If your purpose is to just get something working, use a library.
Otherwise, code it yourself for a very important reason: Practice
Practice in manipulating data structures. There WILL be times you need to manage your own data. Practice in debugging utility code.
Often libs do just what you want and are great, but sometimes YOUR specific use case is handled very badly by the lib and you will gain big benefits from writing you own. This is especially on consoles compared to PCs
(edit:) Regarding script and garbage collection: it will kill you on a console, on a recent game I had to rewrite major portions of the garbage collection on Unreal just to fill our needs in the editor portion. Even more had to be done in the actual game (not just by me) (to be fair though we were pushing beyond Unreal's original specs)
Scripting often good, but it is not an "I win" button. In general the gains disappear if you are pushing against the limits of your platform. I would use "percent of platforms CPU that I have to spare" as my evaluation function in deciding how appropriate script is
One consideration in favor of C/C++/obj-C is that you can mix and match various libraries for different areas of concern. In other words, you are not stuck with the implementation of a feature in a framework.
I use this approach in my games; using chipmunk for 2D physics, Lua as an embedded scripting language, and an openGL ES implementation from Apple. I write the glue to tie all of these together in a C language. The final product being the ability to define game objects, create instances of them, and handle events as they interact with each other in C functions exposed to Lua. This approach is used in many high performance games to much success.
If you don't already know C++, I would definitely recommend you go forward with a scripting language. Making a game from start to finish takes a lot of motivation, and forcing yourself to learn a new language at the same time is a good way to make things go slowly enough that you lose interest (although it IS a good way to learn a new language...).
Most scripting languages will be compiled to byte code anyway, so their biggest performance hit will be the garbage collection. I'm not experienced enough to give a definite description of how big a hit garbage collection would be, but I would be inclined to think that it shouldn't be too bad in a small game.
Also, if you use an existing scripting language library to make your game, most of the performance critical areas (like graphics) can be written in C++ anyway (hopefully by the game libraries). So 80% of the CPU might actually be spent in C++ code anyway, despite the fact that most of your project is written in, say Python.
I would say, ask yourself what you want more: To write a game from start to finish and learn about game development, or to learn a new language (C++). If you want to write a game, do it in a scripting language. If you want to learn a new language, do it in C++.
Yeah unless you just want to learn all of the details of the things that go into making a game, you definitely want to go with a game engine and just focus on building your game logic rather than the details of graphics, audio, resource management, etc.
Personally I like to recommend the Torque Game Builder (aka Torque 2D) from GarageGames. But you can probably find some free game engines out there that will suit your needs as well.
I'm pretty sure most modern games are done in C++, not C. (Every gaming company I ever interviewed with asked C++ questions.)
Why not use C++ and existing libraries for physics + collisions, sound, graphics engine etc. You still write the game, but the mundane stuff is taken care of.
There are alot of different solutions to the issue of abstracting and each deals with it in different ways.
My current project uses C#, DirectX 9, HLSL and SlimDX. Each of these offers a carefully calibrated level of abstraction. HLSL allows me to actually read the shader code I'm writing and SlimDX/C# allows me to ignore pointers, circular dependencies and handling unmanaged code.
That said, none of these technologies has any impact on the ease of developing my AI, lighting or physics! I still have to break out my textbooks in a way that I wouldn't with a higher-level framework.
Even using a framework like XNA, if most video games development concepts are foreign to you there's a hell of a lot still to take in and learn. XNA will allow you to neatly sidestep gimbal lock, but woe betide those who don't understand basic shading concepts. On the other hand, something like DarkBASIC won't solve your gimbal lock problem, but shading is mostly handled for you.
It's a sufficiently big field that your first engine will never be the one you actually use. If you write it yourself, you won't write it well enough. If you use third party libraries, there's certainly aspects that will annoy you and you'll want to replace.
As an idea, it might be worth taking various libraries/frameworks (definately make XNA one of your stops, even if you decide you don't want to use it, it's a great benchmark) and trying to build various prototypes. Perhaps a landscape (with a body of water) or a space physics demo.