I have inherited a broad, ill-designed web portfolio at my job. Most pages are written in Perl as most of the data ingested, processed, and displayed on the site comes in the form of flat-files which then have to be meticulously regexed and databased in our MySQL and Oracle databases.
As the first IT-trained manager of this environment, I am taking it upon myself to scrub the websites and lay down some structure to the development process. One of the choices I have been given is to choose whether or not to continue in Perl. There is substantial in-house talent for Java and PHP is rather easy to learn. I have considered taking the reins off the developers and letting them choose whatever language they want to use for their pages but that sounds like it might be trouble if the guy who chose PHP gets hit by a bus and no one else can fix it.
As the years go by hiring Perl programmers becomes more and more difficult and the complexity of maintaining legacy Perl code from previous developers whose main focus may have been just getting a page up and running is becoming very resource-consuming. Another, previous (non-IT) manager was more focused in on quick turnaround and immediate gratification of pages rather than ensuring that it was done right the first time (he has since been promoted outside our branch).
The production server is solaris. MySQL has most of our data but new projects have begun using Oracle more and more (for GIS data). Web servers are universally Apache. We live in an intranet disconnected from the regular internet. Our development is conducted in an Agile, iterative manner.
Whatever language is chosen to push forward into, there are resources to have the existing development staff re-trained. No matter what, the data that comes into our environment will have to be regexed to death so perl isn't going away anytime soon. My question to the community is, what are the pros and cons of the following languages for the above-defined web dev environment: Perl, PHP, Java, Python, and --insert your favorite language here--. If you had it to do all over again, which language set-up would you have chosen?
Edits and Clarifications:
Let me clarify a bit on my original post. I'm not throwing everything away. I've been given the opportunity to adjust the course of the ship to what I believe is a better heading. Even if I chose a new language, the perl code will be around for some time to come.
Hypothetically speaking, if I chose Assembly as my new language (haha) I would have to get the old developers up to speed probably by sending them to some basic assembly classes. New pages/projects would be in the new language and the old pages/projects would have to play nice with the new pages/projects. Some might one day be rewritten into the new language, some may never be changed.
What will likely always be in Perl will be the parsing scripts we wrote years ago to sift through and database information from the flat files. But that's okay because they don't interface with the webpages, they interface with the database.
Thank you all for your input, it has been very very helpful thus far.
It seems that your problem is more legacy code and informal development methodology than the language per se. So if you already have Perl developers on staff, why not start modernizing your methods and your code base, instead of switching to a new language, and creating an heterogeneous code base.
Modern Perl offers a lot in terms of good practices and powerful tools: testing is emphasized, with the Test::* modules and WWW::Mechanize, data base interaction can be done through plain DBI, but also using ORM modules like the excellent DBIx::Class, OO with Moose is now on par with more modern languages, mod_perl gives you access to a lot of power within Apache. There are also quite a few MVC frameworks for Perl. One that's getting a lot of attention is Catalyst.
Invest in a few copies of Perl Best Practices, bring in a proper trainer for a few classes on modern development methods, and start changing the culture of your group.
And if you have trouble finding developers that are already proficient in Perl, you can always hire good PHP people and train them, that shouldn't be too difficult. At least their willingness to learn a new language would be a good sign of their flexibility and will to improve.
It is always tempting to blame the state of your code on the language its written in, but in your case I am not sure that is the case. Lots of big companies seem to have no problem managing huge code bases in Perl, the list is long but the main Web companies are all there, along with a number of financial institutions.
I would bring in someone who is very good at Perl, to at least look at the current design. They would be able to tell you how bad the Perl code really is, and what needs to be done to get it into good shape.
At that point I would start considering my options. If the Perl code is salvageable, well than great, hire someone proficient in Perl. Also train some of your existing staff to help on the existing code-base. If you don't have someone proficient in Perl in charge of the Perl code, your code-base may become even worse than it already is.
Only if it was in terrible shape, would I consider abandoning it for another language. What that language is, that is something your going to have to think about that yourself.
p.s. I'm a bit biased, I prefer Perl
If regex is important I would choose a language with good support.
If you would use java, you will not be able to just copy paste your regex code from the perl code because the slashes have to be escaped. So I would vote against java.
I'm not familiar with php enough to know its regex features, but given your choices I would go for python. You can create cleaner code in python.
Would ruby also be an option? It also has good perl like regex support and rails supports agile web development out of the box.
first off let me point out that MySQL's spatial extensions work with GIS.
Second, if you have a bunch of Perl programmers that will need tow ork on the new sites then your best bet is to choose something they won't have too much trouble understanding. The obvious "something" there is PHP. When I learnt PHP I'd done some Perl years ago and picked up PHP in no time at all.
Switching to something like Java or .Net (or even Ruby on Rails) would be a far more dramatic shift in design.
Plus with Apache servers you already have your environment set up and you can probably stage any development as a mix of Perl and PHP reasonably easily.
As to the last part of your question: what would you do it in if you could do it over again? To me that's a seprate and basically irrelevant question. The fact is you're not rewinding and starting over, you're just... starting over. So legacy support, transition, skills development and all those other issues are far more important than any hypothetical question of what you'd choose in a perfect world if all other things were equal.
Love it or hate it, PHP is popular and is going nowhere anytime soon. Finding skiled people to do it is not too difficult (well, the dificulty is filtering them out from the self-taught cowboy script jockeys who think they can code but can't) and it's not a far step from Web-based Perl.
If your developers are any good, they'll be able to handle anything thrown at them. Deciding what language to use is quite a tricky strategic position, but I recommend you think very carefully before introducing any MORE (i.e. don't).
Unless of course, there is something that you absolutely cannot do (or cannot do sanely) with what you've got.
I think choosing a single language is key and if your database is primarily MySQL, then PHP seems like the obvious choice. It naturally works with your database, it's open source and there is tons of documentation, source code, doesn't require compiling, etc.
People come and go through positions and any website will evolve over time. If you have the ability to set some guidelines and rules, I would choose something that is forgiving, common-place, and easy(er) to learn.
I'd also suggest writing it down so people in the future don't re-invent the wheel.
Related
looking into connecting to a secure ftp site (using perl), and downloading all the .log files, saving in new directories named after the day I downloaded the files. I want to do this without modules, as a learning experience, but before I start I wanted to know if you guys thought it was doing, or is way too much for a relatively new programmer and I should just learn the modules?
If it's production work, no, use the modules. Your implementation will be buggy, missing features and unknown to the next person maintaining that code.
Otherwise, yes. It's good to learn the principles of a network protocol. I do have a reservation about FTP as it is a bit baroque, insecure, inefficient and on its way out. scp, HTTP or rsync would be more useful to put your energy into.
I'd start with reading the RFC and putting together your own FTP module using just network sockets. Document and test it as if you were going to release to CPAN as a full learning exercise in making a network module. Run it against some various FTP server implementations as they often interpret the spec differently (or not at all). Don't be afraid to cheat and look at what the existing modules do. Who knows, you might write something better than what's already there.
Learning the principals, just like we did at school for long multiplication and division, means we know how things work when we use a short hand.
However, when new to the world,just like when you learn to speak, you did "A is for Apple" etc, you didnt get explained about the finesse of grammar and all that, you learnt to express yourself enough to be understood.
Programming is a little like the same. While in an ideal world you can easily argue a prewritten generic library is often way less efficient than a specifically targeted set of routines. If the wheel you are using was already invented, it seems a lot of work to make a new one.
So, use the wheels and cogs afailable, once you really have the hang of it, NOW look at inventing your own more efficient ones.
Ad cpan modules:
Modules are an great learning source. Here is zilion modules and you can really learn much studying some of them.
And when/while you mastering your perl, you will start writing you own modules. When your program will use modules anyway (yours one), you can ask - why don't use modules already developed and debugged?
So, learn perl basics, study some modules (for example Net::SFTP) and if you still want write your own solution - it is up to you. :)
'
I'm net-java developer with some small projects implemented. I'm going to start a new project which is portal with many typical features (posts, comments, messaging, users, catalog, news, galleries, etc).
I believe the best solution would be use any mature CMS (joomla, drupal...) and customize it where needed. The problem is that I'm not familiar with PHP (CMS written on PHP has far better set of features, plugins, community, information I believe) I'm not planning to learn PHP, I want to improve my java-net skills.
So the question for me is:
write all by myself, improving my programming skills and risking to finish my project in relatively long period
on the other hand
I could spend some time learning tools and languages, which I think while, I don't need in the future and more likely finish my project in some shorter time
what would you advise?
Learning another language will not hurt you, and as most of the differences are in syntax and supporting libraries, you would be surprised at how quickly you can pick up a new language.
Your choice should be on what language is best for the task, not simply the one you know.
So, my suggestion is - learn PHP and go with a mature CMS.
A LOT of effort goes into developing a CMS, so writing your own will likely take some time. Put together a project plan and work out how long it would take you to develop something from scratch, then do some research on existing CMS packages and how they fit your needs.
I'm a .NET developer but have used Joomla in the past - it's actually quite easy to put together a website even if you're not too familiar with PHP.
Better yet, find a CMS package in your preferred language - they oughta be some out there.
i.e.
http://java-source.net/open-source/content-managment-systems
Learning new tools is seldom a waste of time. Especially not when it comes to such well known and world wide spread languages such as php. I would say it's best using the tools most suited for the project you're up to, rather than reinventing the wheel.
You should take a good look at your requirements. If you're sure you can get them all from a CMS, that makes most sense. Take a good look at the compatibility and reliability of all components.
Otherwise, you might be better served by a .net or java CMS.
Writing your own CMS without having extensive experience in the current available ones is not going to lead to a good result, except for you learning some programming skills.
If you don't have a "due date" for your project write it by yourself.
Or take a look at http://www.opencms.org/en/ ;)
There are a lot of opensource CMS written in Java ;)
Even if you don't write in PHP again, the benefit of knowing another programming language is going to give you some valuable perspective on net-java.
The task of learning a new language is going to be an asset. Learning to learn something. Identifying what you need to know and how to find the answers is a transferable skill.
Your job will be to complete your project in the most efficient manner with the highest quality output practical. Use the tool that is going to best help you achieve this. The language it's written in should be largely irrelevant.
I realize that this may be subjective but I truly need an answer to this and I can't seem to find anything close enough to it in the rest of the Forum. I have read some folks say that the framework (any MVC framework) can obscure too many things while others say that it can promote good practices. I realize that frameworks are great for a certain level of programmer but what about individuals starting out? Should one just focus on the language or learn them together?
I think web development is way more than anyone grasps when they first start getting into it! Read this and know that it is all optional...but required to be really good at what you do.
I suggest that you spend time learning your language first. I would suggest learning C# simply because it is vastly more marketable and it is usually directly supported in most of MS products. By learning C# - programming in ASP.NET, console apps, servers, services, desktop apps, etc. will all be within your reach. You can program for most of the MS products as well as on many Linux type platforms.
Once you have this down then you can move to programming for the web as programming for the web has some intricacies that most other environments don't have. Concepts such as sessions, caching, state management, cross site scripting, styling, client side vs server side programming, browser support, how HTTP works, get vs post, how a form works, cookies, etc. are all at the top of the list of things to learn separately not to mention learning the ASP.NET base frameworks and namespaces.
Once you have the programming language down and then the concepts of web programming I suggest that you pause and learn database design. Don't worry about performance just yet...try to first learn good design. Performance will come next. A good start for you is Access (blasphemy I know). It is easy for a beginner to work with. And it translates into a more robust platform such as SQL Server easily. Learn at the very least some SQL...but I suggest that you learn as much as your stomach can handle. I heard someone say that SQL is like the assembly language of the database. The number one thing that slows an application to a halt is piss poor database design and poor queries. Once you have this knowledge - stuff it away in the back of your mind and take a look at a good ORM. NHybernate is probably best at the moment but is more complex that the basic learner needs. For that reason I currently suggest getting LINQ to SQL up and running as it is SUPER EASY to work with. Then look at Entity Framework (although I still think it sucks...and you should wait till EF 2.0...ERRRRR...now 4.0 released with .net 4.0). Then NHybernate.
Now is the time to start to understand the infrastructure that is required by web development. You may bump your head against this as you learn some of the web programming stuff. But you need to understand the basics of DNS, IIS, load balancers, sticky routing, round robin, clustering, fault tolerance, server hardware setup, web farms, cache farms (MemCached Win32, Velocity), SMTP, MSMQ, database mail queuing, etc. Many people may say you don't need this. That there will be some knowledgeable network admin to help you out here. However they generally know things that impact them...not you. The more you know here the more valuable you will be to the company that hires you.
Now you can get into the details of best practices and design patterns. Learn about the basics such as repository pattern, factory pattern, facade pattern, model view presenter pattern, model view controller pattern, observer pattern, and various other things. Follow Martin Fowler and others for suggestions here. Take a look at concepts such as inversion of control, dependency injection, SOLID principle, DRY, FIT, test driven design, and domain driven design, etc. Learn as much as you can here before moving to the next step.
NOW you can think about frameworks! Start by creating a basic application with ASP Classic (comes with IIS for free!). This will give you a flavor of a no frills web development environment. Take a look at ASP.NET web forms (briefly) to see how MS attempted to make things easier by hiding all the complex stuff (which you now know how to manage on your own from your readings of the above materials!!!). Now you no longer need ASP.NET Web Forms. Move immediately to ASP.NET MVC. The MVC framwork gives you all the power you need to create a good easily manageable web application. If you build something really big no framework for pure web development may be able to deal with what you need. However MVC is way more extensible for such UBER custom scenarios.
Now that you have made it through the journey to ASP.NET MVC you can take a look at things such as Microsofts Enterprise Application Blocks (such as they use at MySpace). Take a look at Elmah error logging (a must have). Look at how to build a custom SiteMapProvider for your MVC site. If you need to get into searching stuff understand Lucene.NET.
And if you made it this far...you are ready to figure out the rest on your own as it comes up! Have fun. There is a lot of room in this space for a person with some understanding of all of the above concepts.
You'll be using SOME sort of framework. The question is, what level do you want to learn at?
You'll probably not care to learn about asynchronous I/O and mutlithreaded vs. select/poll styles of web servers.
So then, your language of choice is going to provide a layer atop this, the languages preferred "web interface" API. For Java it's Servlets, the lowest level you'd typically code at for server side web applications.
You should find what this "lower level" layer is in your language and learn the API at least. You should know basic HTTP like status codes, cookies, redirects, POST vs GET, URL encoding, and possibly what some of the more important headers do.
You'll then come to appreciate what these higher level frameworks bring to the table, and be better able to evaluate what is the appropriate level of abstraction for your needs/project.
Web development requires a certain degree of organization, since it relies so much on separation of concerns. The browser, for example, is designed to display data and interact with the user. It is not designed to lookup data from a database, or perform analysis. Consequently, a web development framework can help provide services that are needed to make the browser experience a practical one.
The nice thing about employing a platform is that it will provide core components essential to the making of any web application that you won't (and shouldn't) have to think about, such as user membership, for example. Many of the design decisions and deep thinking about how to implement these services has already been done for you, freeing you to focus on what you actually want you application to do.
Of the available frameworks, I find that frameworks that implement the MVC (model-view-controller) pattern are very practical. They clearly organize different functions of web development, while giving you full control over the markup presented to the browser.
All that said, you will need some fundamental skills to fully realize web development, such as HTML, CSS, and a core programming language for the actual underlying program, whether you use a platform or not.
I don't think I agree with the Andrew. I don't think learning C is a pre requisite for web development. In fact, learning something like Javascript, Action-script or PHP is often easier due in large part to the vast numbers of sites and tutorials available, and are enough to expose you to the fundamentals of pretty much every programing language. Variable, Conditions, Loops and OOP. I just think learning C# introduces a lot of learning that isn't really relevant to web development such as pointers and memory management.
As for wether you should learn a framework first? Definitely not. Never ever. You need to be able to stand on your own two feet first and be comfortable with HTML/CSS, Server Side Scripting (PHP/ASP/Python/Ruby whatever) and love it or loathe it, but you're going to have to have a decent understanding of Flash and Action-script.
The order in which you learn these is entirely up to you. But my learning plan would go like this...
Start with HTML. It takes about half an hour to get the basics (it's made up of tags with attributes, end of lesson 1) and it's good to get it out of the way first.
Then start leaning CSS. You'll get the basics again, very quickly. But CSS is a minefield so expect to spend the rest of your life figuring it out.
Next up Action-script. Most people wouldn't agree with me, but bear with me. HTML and CSS aren't programming languages. Action-script is. And learning a programing language for the first time is difficult and tedious. The advantage Action-script has over most other languages is that the results are very visual. It's enjoyable to work with and you can sit back and take pride in your accomplishments at regular intervals. This isn't possible with server-side scripting languages or Javascript and there's a whole host of stuff you need to learn to get server side scripting up and running. You can't build space invaders in with PHP for example.
I've changed my thinking here. I would encourage beginners to ignore ActionScript and focus on Javascript. I still believe that being able to see stuff on screen quickly is a good motivator, but I would encourage people to look at canvas tag tutorials and frameworks. Javascript has come a long way since 2009, and is now the lingua franca of programming, so it's incredibly useful. My initial point about HTML and CSS not being programming languages still stands.
Then, you can start with your server side language. At the same time, you're going to have to figure out the database stuff. I recommend PHP and MySQL because it's free.
Again, I've changed my thinking here. I would encourage beginners to use Javascript on the backend (Node.js), and split their database learning between relational databases and noSql solutions such as Mongo.
Then.... learn your framework. Or better yet, roll your own. That's what I've been doing and it's supercharged my learning.
If you're getting into web development, You HAVE to know how those building blocks work. You don't have to be an expert in all the areas, but you should try to become an expert in at least one of them. If you start learning a framework before you get the fundamentals you'll be in a sticky middle ground where you don't understand why things don't work which will infuriate you, and anyone who has to work with you.
you should learn how to use framework because it would be helpfull for u in the future also it is easier to learn.
MVC will help you a lot .. trust me ... i was developing web project not using mvc and it is like mess ... (in the past there are no well know mvc and i never heard about it)
Short version: yes, and then some.
FWIW : This more generic answer may be of use to someone out there.
What: Frameworks take out tedium of using boiler-plate code again and again. They hide complexity and design issues under wizards and conventions. They also use special libraries, design patterns etc. in ways that are far from obvious to a beginner.
So using a framework is good for getting things done without knowing exactly how - like using an ATM without knowing the internals. You just add your code bits in certain places and things 'just work'.
HTML > CSS > Ruby > SQL > Rails/Javascript framework > Libraries would make for a good learning track. Rest you learn as you go along by being curious, hanging out on forums or as extended learning as need arises.
HOW: The problem starts the minute you step outside simple text-book examples (i.e. when you try to get it to do something even a bit different).
Decoding cryptic error messages when it seems like you've done everything right but things still don't work. Searching on error strings in forums may help out. Or just re-starting from scratch.
Reading up articles and books, videos, trial-and-error, hard-work, search-engines, stackoverflow/forums, local gurus, design articles, using libraries, source-code browsing are a good way to climb the learning curve gently and on a requirement basis.
Working-against-the-framework is the number one problem for beginners. Understanding what the framework expects is key to avoiding white-hair in this phase. Having enough insight to manually do what the framework automates may help reduce this second-guessing effort.
WHY: For more advanced debugging/design, it's good to know what the framework is doing under the hood esp. when things don't work as you planned. Initially you can take the help of local-gurus or forum gurus who've already done the hard work. Later as you go deeper you can take on more of that role. For example there's a "rebuilding rails" book which looks under the hood of Ruby on Rails.
Note: Some of the tips are oriented towards Ruby/Rails but you can easily substitute your favourite language/framework instead.
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I got into Perl years ago and always found it a fun and expressive language to work with.
I found that programming in Perl makes me quite productive thanks to its low overhead and the outstanding amount of ready-made solutions to common problems on CPAN.
If you're new to Perl, what got you into it?
I was coding PHP for a living, and then heard of their change from :: to \ as a name-space separator. I'm really not joking or being spiteful, but that is really what got the ball rolling.
Not to be elitist, but I suddenly realised that the people I had to collaborate with whom knew PHP understood very little in programming concepts in ways that frustrated me how they could be so blind, the people in the IRC rooms for it were no longer a source of help for my questions, and I usually spent more time answering questions and waiting for somebody to turn up whom could answer mine. Usually I ended up solving it myself.
Most the time I realised was people re-solving the same problems over and over again in increasingly bad ways.
I discovered problematic behaviours in PHP which defied logic and reasoning (like the array_merge_recursive family), and discovered functions that were undocumented in how to use them, and when I reported a bug in the functions, my bug was marked as "Bogus" and I was expected to be psychic.
I had a friend whom was constantly proclaiming the goodness of Perl, so I basically gave it a shot and now am hooked like an addict.
Additionally, my experience in other higher-order dynamically typed languages (JavaScript and Ruby, yes, JavaScript is a more powerful language than PHP in terms of language features) left me a knowledge with many ways to solve types of problems easily, but being restricted in such a way I had no way to use these powerful features. Perl satisfied this need.
Why Perl and not Ruby? I've played with Ruby a bit, but my experience taught me the support and documentation is sparse, the language is slow and immature. Nice it may be, but its still in diminished in capacity against Perl from what I've seen. And it shared PHPs major flaw that it has a huge user base comprised of total novices all doing things the wrong way, and I really wanted to not have to deal with that so much.
It's not nice to be elitist, but once you have tried to explain the same thing to 30 people (and taken an hour to get a simple concept into their heads every time) it reaches a point of frustration. (I can't cope with the 'There is somebody on the internet who is wrong' situation, If I can't SEE it, it doesn't happen)
I started doing Perl during my third year in computer science as a part of 'Scripting languages' course. I have a friend studying biotechnology and I helped her with some data mining scripts for dealing with protein databases (parsing text files, regexps, simple integrity checks). It was all very natural to do in Perl.
Then I got my first part-time job and had to use it professionally. I was responsible for developing set of batch scripts that handled some part of business logic in the company. And it was the task where Perl revealed all its potential. Need to get data from DB? - no problem, just go to CPAN. Need to automate wiki - no problem, go to CPAN. The amount of already created modules is overwhelming and you can be sure you will always find what you need in CPAN.
To sum up. For me, Perl is a swiss army knife of scripting languages. Everything can be done in it and it has huge number of additional modules even for very exotic tasks. And by the way, did I mention REGEXPS?
With Perl (and the expressive power behind TMTOWTDI), programming becomes a creative task. I can write if($expr) { $statement; } if I plan on having many else statements, or I can write $statement if $expr; if that makes more sense (for example, I'm fond of writing:
sub doSomething {
my($toObject, $argument) = #_;
die "No object specified" unless defined($toObject);
die "Object invalid: $toObject" unless $toObject->ISA('Example');
# Do stuff
}
but of course that's not always the easiest, and most expressive way of doing it; so I come up with a better way for the task at hand!). People complain because Perl lets you write horrible looking code; I love Perl because it lets me write code which looks pretty to me (and yes, I can see the downside of having a dozen different programmers writing in their own styles; I'll hold to the idea that good writers can be pretty expressive and understandable no matter how different the subject matter).
With other programming languages, I end up having to think my way through abstraction layers (how will this Map give me Collections whose Iterators I can use to ... and so on). With Perl, I'm usually only one abstraction level above basic Perl. For instance, DBI will give me database results as ordinary, everyday Perl scalars, lists and hashes, so everything I know about these simple, core data structures carries over to every task I put DBI to (Complicated data structures? That's what PostgreSQL is for!).
I've only been using Perl full-time for about a year, but these are the big wins for me, and the reason I first went full-time onto Perl after a year suffering at the hands of Java 1.4's Collections model (don't ask). Other programming languages make me feel like I'm putting together a jigsaw puzzle, as you line up all the modules and packages just right; Perl feels like a box full of Legos, with some "special" bricks (like DBI, CGI.pm and Test::*) thrown in for good measure. There are tons of different ways to solve any problem, and Perl lets you try any of them you like, in any way you like.
I'm still not that long time in the Perl community and what me first brought in was Larry Wall's humor and wisdom. True, Perl has it quirks but the language comes from an understanding of things that is very close to mine so I'm much less comfortable with Python and to a lesser degree Ruby.
I don't do web app's more GUI with WxPerl and it works just fine. I'm very interested in languages also in lesser known like factor, boo, rebol and so on but all in all is Perl my choice. and it's because a mixture of powerful syntax (can be very functional if you like it), the community, CPAN of course, and, like I said before, due to the cosy feeling being in the right place.
Perl is its community, which is the reason to use it both on a social and practical level. (See CPAN and Perlmonks, which likely inspired SO.)
There's a lot of freedom when coding in Perl; you can write some wicked-crazy unreadable hacks, but it doesn't take long once you've gotten a feel for the language (and learned how to use perltidy :-) ) before you realize that well-written perl code can look downright pretty.
It's interesting; I ended up as a full-time Perl programmer after learning it for my sysadmin-type job in college; and now it's my strongest skill. I'm going to stick with Perl for a while because so far the language has been versatile to grow with me. I write a lot of systems software in Perl, and decided to pick up web programming for fun, and Catalyst was there waiting for me. Do I want to try out a new language paradigm? Perl will probably support it. In contrast, when I was coding in PHP for a time, I immediately felt like I was pressing against a glass ceiling.
I work as a technological troubleshooter for a big organization in southern OH. I had to learn Perl to keep some automated network text manipulation systems up and running and eventually got a little excited about it. I eventually thought of myself as a developer and wrote some programs that parsed some database data and made some people’s lives a little easier. But after reading some of the posts on this website and listening to the stackoverflow podcast and even starting to read the book Code Complete from someone’s suggested reading list I no longer have any delusions that I was a developer of Perl or any other language for that matter. However, maybe someday I could be.
I had used awk a few time for shell scripts way, way back in the days. In one ancient project we needed to implement the a TELNET protocol connection, so I wrote a quick version in Perl 4. It worked really well, and I started to really like the language.
Later, I wrote a big full commercial web application in Perl 5, complete with it's own framework and database. I was careful not to use to many of Perl's more esoteric features, so the code looked more like C than Perl. It worked really well, performance was good and the code was easily extended.
Recently I've been working in Java, but I often find myself missing the Perl's loose typing, and its ability to encapsulate things way better than Java. My favorite features were being able to put Perl datastructures (arrays and hashes) and code directly in config files and execute them, and the ability to tie code to syntax like arrays. Both lead to some really slick code.
Paul.
simple syntax, powerful scripting capabilities for win32 and unix systems, and totally powerful regex!
I pickup Perl on my first job where I had to write plenty of automation script for electrical engineers to mine datalogs and format them to Excel and sometimes deal with sql server too. With Perl I could usually get something working rather quickly, so all is good in the manufacturing land. :P
I started using Perl as an enhancement to our build process for embedded development. We needed to develop diverse outputs based on our cross compiled payload and Perl was a great fit.
Our enhancements included floating-point to hexadecimal conversion, S-record post-processing, and checksum modifications.
Not that this kind of work can't be done with many other tools, but I would definitely recommend Perl for build-related work.
What brought me to Perl was when I saw the DBI and realized that I could write the ESQL/C programs I was writing at the time in one fifth the time.
What has kept me using Perl is that the two other languages likely to unseat it are both strongly typed. That is
print "10" + 5;
is a type error rather than 15.
I'm not taking it up. I had to work on a project in Perl a few years ago, and I came to really dislike the language. It has a sometimes-awkward syntax and a lot of crazy gotchas that I found hard to work with. Honestly, I think Ruby has superseded Perl in many respects: it's good at roughly the same things, but has much nicer features and is easier to use.
Perl still has CPAN, though, which even Ruby can't match (although Ruby has a lot of useful libraries, too).
I considered learning Perl last year.
It was the only technologies that I actively decided not to learn. This is nothing directly against the language itself, it just seemed that I would be coming to the party 10 years too late. It is very useful for the shell scripting tasks that it was designed for but for me personally I prefer languages with a stronger coherence.
Perl 6 seems like it's on indefinite hiatus and even when it arrives I don't believe that it will make the language profoundly more compelling.
Also, Larry Wall scares me.
For my situation Perl wasn't the right choice and thats why.
Perl is not as bad as I thought. I used to use it in a couple customer scripts about one year ago, and even grew to like it a bit. Then again, I've never ever missed it since.
The reason? It's mostly a write-only language. Going above a 100 line solution made me be wary of my own code, which is definately not a good outcome. With other languages that bar is considerably higher (maybe 1000 or 10000 lines).
I see no reason to go for Perl in new projects, for new users, in -soon- 2009.
If you were going to start building web sites as a consulting business on the side -- keeping your day job -- and you also had a toddler and a wife, what frameworks/tools would you pick to save you typing?
Any language.
I'm looking for a productivity superstar stack that won't tie my hands too much when I have to update the site 6 months later, or "evolve" the data model once in production.
It needs to allow me to say "yes" to the client: community features, CMS, security, moderation, AJAX, ...
I would suggest Django. Super simple to get something up and running really quick. You are using Python which has a large library to go with it. For me Ruby on Rails would be a close second.
I'd probably look at DotNetNuke. Its easy to set up (a lot of hosts will do it for you) and easy to use and put together a custom site that business's will be able to maintain in the future.
Its fairly easy to create custom modules that are specific to a business and hundreds of modules for sale (or free) that can be integrated into DNN for special uses.
Take a look at Microsoft's Sharepoint server if you'd like a pre-made framework with many options for plugging in your own code. Sharepoint is kind of a world unto itself but it is a very powerful environment.
Update: I'm surprised to have been voted down on this one. Keep in mind that the questioner specifically requested frameworks that included a CMS. Sharepoint meets this criteria - unlike straight .NET or other web development frameworks.
If you are going to vote the entry down, I think you owe it to the person who asked the question to explain why you don't think he should not even explore it as an option. You could be right - collective wisdom is what voting on SO is all about. But without an explanation, we don't know why you think you are right.
My answers are going to revolve around the .NET stack.
Use Master pages and CSS templates. This makes it so much easier to pop in a new look and feel for your customer.
For sure I'd include the Dynamic Data framework in the .NET world.
Hosting might become an issue for your customer. Questions around managing email addresses, procedures on how to quickly update the website to include the new contact phone number (different for each customer, I'd assume) Consider getting a reseller account on your favorite webhost, and dole out webhosting accounts as appropriate. There are lots of issues around this point. It may turn out to be a nice source of recurring revenue.
Build yourself a few patterns including a database wrapper which would handle all your data calls (i.e. a dll which wraps all your data calls, sets up your ADO.NET objects, runs your sproc calls, and picks up the connstring from app.config or something similar.)
This goes a long way to maintainability as well.
I would recomend going with anything MVC in a language you can undertand! Theres a couple of CMS's in python, php and ruby using that design and well... that allows you to be ready for combat for Ajax and expanding anything very fast.
This is definitely not a question that can be answered.
I prefer asp.net webforms because I think it allows for extremely rapid web app development, but I am sure you will receive recommendations for:
asp.net mvc
Ruby on Rails
PHP and some framework
Python and some framework such as Django
I believe PHP has the most pre-built apps that you can use, though asp.net also has the things you are looking for.
All of these platforms and frameworks can do what you want.
Choose between Rails and Django. They both have different strengths. I like Rails better in general, but Django's admin interface can save you a lot of time when you need it.
There's another factor to take into consideration here: what are you the most familiar with? I believe that some studies have found upwards of a 30% loss of productivity when trying to learn a new language/framework.
Sometimes, there's nothing wrong with just sticking to what you know. But if you're interested in what languages/frameworks to learn, I'll refer you to the other posts because the above was the only thing I really have to add.
I recommend looking into Grails. It uses Groovy which is similiar to Java (so if you know this already you're good to go). Groovy runs on the JVM so you can still use all the great libraries already available for Java. Yet, since it's a dynamic language with a lot of the similar bells and whistles like Ruby you can use closures and that kind of neat stuff when you need/want to. And you're not slowed down by Java's traditonal slow compile-deploy-test development cycle.
Grails is already setup with Hibernate and Spring. You can create CRUD application in practically no-time (pretty much like Rails applications), and at the same time drill down and be able to control every little details since it's built on such proven and well-supported technologies. In addition there's literally hundreds of plugins available that helps you easily set up things like mailing lists, security, AJAX components and so on.
Otherwise, if you want to set up a community site and don't want to code a single line you could always check out ning.com.