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I'm currently working on a project that's been going on for several years straight. The development-team is small (less than 5 programmers), and source-control is virtually non-existent, and the deployment-process as is is just based on manually moving files from one server to another. The project is in classic ASP, so building isn't an issue, as both deployment and testing is just about getting the files to where they need to be and directing the browser at the correct location. Currently all development is done on a network-drive which is also the test-server. The test-server is only available when inside the the local network (can be accessed trough vpn), and is available on the address 'site.test' in the browser (requires editing to the hosts-file on all the clients, but since there are so few of us that hasn't proven to be any problem at all). All development is done in visual studio. Whenever a file is change the developer that changed the file is required to write the file he changed into a word-document and include a small description as of what was changed and why. Then, whenever there's supposed to be a version-bump (deployment), our lead-developer goes trough the word-document and copies every file (file by file) that has changed over to the production-server. Now, I don't think I need to tell you that this method is very error prone (a developer might for instance forget to add that he changed some dependency, and that might cause problems when deployed), and there's a lot of work involved with deploying.
And here comes the main question. I've been asked by the lead developer to use some time and see if I can come up with a simple solution that can simplify and automate the "version-control" and the deployment. Now, the important thing is that it's as easy as posible to use for the developers. Two of the existing developers have worked with computers for a long time, and are pretty stuck up in their routines, so for instance changing it into something like git bash wouldn't work at all. Don't get me wrong, I love git, but the first time one of them got a merge-conflict they wouldn't know what to do at all. Also, it would be ideal to change to a more distributed development-process where the developers wouldn't need to be logged into vpn (or need internet at all) to develop, and the changes they made offline could be synced up when they were done with them. Now, I've looked at Teem Development Server from Microsoft because of it's strong integration with Visual Studio. As far as I've tested it seems possible to make Visual Studio prompt the user if they want to check in changes whenever the user closes Visual Studio. Now, using TFS for source-control would probably eliminate most of the problems with the development, but how about deployment? Not to mention versioning? As far as I've understood (I've only looked briefly at TFS), TFS has a running number for every check-in, but is it possible to tell TFS that this check-in should be version 2.0.1 of the system (for example), and then have it deploy it to the web-server? And another problem, the whole solution consists of about 10 directories with hundreds of files in, though the system itself (without images and such) is only 5 directories, and only these 5 should be deployed to the server, is this possible to automate?
I know there's a lot of questions here, but what is most important is that I want to automate the development process (not the coding, but the managing of the code), and the deployment process, and I want to make it as simple as possible to use. I don't care if the setup is a bit of work, cause I got enough time at hand to setup whatever system that fits our needs, but the other devs should not have to do a lot of setup. If all of the machines that should use the system needs to be setup once, that's no problem at all, cause I can do that, but there shouldn't bee any need to do config and setups as we go.
Now, do any of you have any suggestions to what systems to use/how to use them, in order to simplify the described processes above? I've worked with several types of scm-systems before (GIT, HG and SubVersion), but I don't have any experience with build-systems at all (if that is needed). Articles, and discussion on how to efficiently setup systems like this would be greatly appreciated. In advance, thanks.
This is pretty subjective territory, but I think you need to get some easy wins first. The developers who are "stuck up in there ways" are the main roadblock here. They are going to see change as disruptive and not worth it. You need to slowly and carefully go for the easy wins.
First, TFS is probably not going to be a good choice. It's expensive, heavy, and the source control in TFS is pretty lousy. Go for Subversion: it's easy to setup and easy to use, and it's free. Get that in place first, and get the devs using it. Much easier said than done.
Later (possibly much later), once the devs are using it and couldn't imagine life without a VCS, then you could switch to Hg or Git if you need first class branching and all those other nice features.
Once you have Subversion in place, you can use something like JetBrains TeamCity or Jenkins, both of which are free and easy to use. However, I'm just assuming you don't have a lot of tests and build scripts that the CI server is really going to be running, so it's far more important that you get VCS first. In all things: keep it as simple as possible. Baby steps. Get some wins, build trust, repeat.
I can't even begin to think where to begin with this! Intending no offense directed at you, apart from the mention of git and HG, this post could have been written 10 years ago.
1) Source control - How can a team of developers possibly work effectively without some form of source control? Hell, even if it's Visual Source Safe (* shudder *) at least it would be something. You have to insist that the team implement source control. You know what's available so I won't get into preaching about that. (However, Subversion with TortoiseSVN has worked quite well for me.)
2)
"write the file he changed into a
word-document and include a small
description as of what was changed and
why"
You have got to be kidding... What happens if two developers change the same file? Does the lead then have to manually merge two changes that s/he extracts from the word doc? Please see #1 and explain to them how commit comments work.
Since your don't really need to "build" (i.e. compiled, etc.) anything, you should be able to solve most of your problems with some simple tools. First and foremost you need to use a source control solution. Yes, the developers would have to learn how to use another tool (EEEK!). You could do the initial leg work of getting the code into the repository. If you have file access to the other developers machines, you could even copy a checked-out working copy to their machines so they wouldn't have to do the checkout themselves (not really that hard). You could then use all the creamy goodness of version control to create version branches when each deployment needs to be done. You could write simple scripts using the command line SVN tools to check out said branches and automatically copy the files to the target server(s). Using a tool like BeyondCompare, the copy process could be restricted to only the files that are different (plus BC can handle an FTP target if that is an issue). By enforcing commit comments on the SVN repo, you'll guarantee that the developers provide comments, and for each set of changes between releases you could very easily generate a list of all those comments using the CSM log retrieval features.
What is the best version control system to implement with PowerBuilder 11.5?
If you have examples of how you have did branching/trunk/tags that would be awesome. We have tried to wrap our heads around it a few times and always run into problems because we use shared libraries such as PFC/PFE in multiple applications.
Right now we are only using PBNative, and it sucks.
The Agent SVN is a MS-SCCI Subversion plug-in works with PowerBuilder.
Here is a link that describes how to setup Agent SVN to work with PowerBuilder and Subversion.
We currently use Perforce and it's P4SCC plugin, which works very well. In fact, I'm sure I read somewhere that the guys at Sybase who write PowerBuilder, actually use Perforce themselves.
So, to be fair, let's start out by saying that while you're asking about version control, PBNative is source control. If you compare something that is intended to have more features than just keep two developers from editing the same piece of source, then yes, PBNative will suck. The Madone SL may be an incredible bicycle, but if you're trying to take a couple of laps around an Indy track, it will suck.
"Best" is a pretty subjective word. There are lots of features available in version control and configuration management tools. You can get tons of features, but you'll pay through the nose. StarTeam has some nice features like being able to trace a client change request or bug report all the way through to the changed code, and being able to link in a customized diff tool (which is particularly useful in PB). Then again, if cost is your key criteria rather than features, there are lots of free options that will get the job done. As long as the tool supports the Microsoft SCC interface, you should be OK.
There is a relatively active NNTP newsgroup that focuses on source control with PowerBuilder, which you can also access via the web. You can probably find some already-posted opinions there.
Many years ago I used Starteam to control PB applications. PowerBuilder needless to say is an outdated bear, and it has to export each and every object from its "libraries" into source control.
Currently our legacy PB apps have its libraries saved whole into Subversion, without any support for diff's etc.
We use Visual SourceSafe. We don't use PFC, but we do have libraries that are shared among several projects. Till now, each project was developed separately from the others, and so the shared libraries were duplicated. To have them synchronized, they were all shared at the VSS level. Lately we've reorganized our sources so all projects are near each other, and there's only one instance of the shared libraries.
VSS is definitively not the best source control system, to say the least, but it integrates into PB without the need of any bridges. PB has an inherent problem working with source control, so it probably won't make a very difference working with one instead of the other (at least from the PB point of view).
Now, on a personal note, I'd like to say PB 11.5 is a piece of sh*t. It constantly crashes, full of unbelievable UI nuisance and just brings productivity to its knees. It's probably the worst IDE ever created. Stay away if possible.
FYI: The new PB12 (PB.NET) will integrate with SCC systems so you can easily choose which source control system that you want to use. Since we basically have dropped PBLs (they are now directories) files can be checked in/out individually - even with a plain vanilla editor since files are now normal (unicode) text files.
StarTeam integrates so beautifully with the PB IDE. I used that combination at my previous company (PB9 and ST5.x) for several years. You should be managing your code at the object level - don't log the entire PBL into ST...
If you're having problems with that setup, hit me up offline. phoran at sybase dot com.
We use Merant Version Manager for older projects and TFS for newer work. The only issue we have is that TFS does not support keyword expansion and changing the 'read the flowerbox comments' attitude people have. Some folks are nervous about losing the inline versioning history.
We use StarTeam and have been very pleased with it. It combines bug tracking with version control. Unfortunately though we don't store our files on the object level. We just store the PBL files directly in source control. Anything that supports the SCC interface theoretically should work correctly in PowerBuilder.
PB9: We used PVCS but had stability problems with pbl corruption and also problems co-existing with later versions of Crystal Reports (dll conflict) so now we use PB9 with Dynamsoft's Source Anywhere Standalone. This system is more primitive; it is missing the more advanced features for promotion levels and for pulling out an older milestone version of all objects to make a patch build.
What we are looking for now is something which will allow more advanced "change management", to support promotion levels at the change level (rather than at the object level). Would it be better to use perforce, starteam, or (harvest change manager + HarPB), or something else? Any advice on these combinations would be greatly appreciated.
You can always use Plastic SCM with PowerBuilder through SCC. Plastic is pretty advanced in terms of graphics, tools, replica and so on, so it's always a good choice to keep in mind.
I'm developing a mobile phone application that targets a lot of mobile devices based on the capabilities they offer. There would be a base feature set which all phones are expected to support and then there would be additional features that would depend on specific set of phones.
How do I manage such a code base in terms of a version control system?
I have experience with CVS and VSS but both don't quite fit into my needs for this kind of an application. The last thing I would want to do is branch the code for each of these device sets.
Let me make this a bit more clear with the help of an example. Lets say I'm developing a J2ME application using MIDP 2.0. This is the base feature set that I would expect all phones supporting MIDP 2.0 to have. On top of this I would extend this application for specific sets of phones using their SDK's. For eg. Nokia S40, Nokia S60, Sony Ericsson, Blackberry etc. All these provide additional functionalities which lets you build more on top of your base application and most of the times these would affect your whole code base from UI to core logic.
One way to achieve this is to use a combination of a build system with preprocessor flags and trying to separate the differences enough to not have too many dependencies. This can get quite complicated at times. I am wondering if there is an easier way to handle this using a smart source control system....
I would look at Subversion's svn:externals.
With svn 1.5 you can use relative references for directories, and svn 1.6 supports file-based externals.
For example a structure like,
/Phone1/Base
/Phone1/Feature1
/Phone1/Feature2
/Phone2/Base
/Phone2/Feature1
/Phone2/Feature3
Would be easily acheived using svn:externals.
In Subversion, your repository structure is very flexible, here is one way (of many) you could lay that out:
trunk/Features/Base
trunk/Features/Feature1
trunk/Features/Feature2
trunk/Features/Feature2
trunk/Phones/Phone1 (with svn:externals to Base, Feature1, ...)
trunk/Phones/Phone2 (with svn:externals to Base, Feature3, ...)
One hint though: Make sure that you use a specific Subversion revision for each external reference, it may not seem important when starting out, but 6 months down the track it will :)
I like Subversion for projects which don't have a lot of developers on it. From your problem statement, to me it sounds like you should be able to acheive what you want with a good build system. So I don't think the source control itself would make much a difference. But I may be misunderstanding your problem.
Sayed Ibrahim Hashimi
My Book: Inside the Microsoft Build Engine : Using MSBuild and Team Foundation Build
I don't think VCS will solve your problem.
Your best bet maybe to abstract out the phone specific functionality as much as possible and/or go with a plugin type model.
I've only had experience with Subversion, CVS, Starteam, and VSS. Branches are a pain no matter what... especially if you have multiple active branches. You won't get around doing constant merges , branch comparisons, and trying to track if you've made a change to all branches.
If you organize your code into some core modules and some phone-specific modules which depend on the core modules then it doesn't really matter which VCS you use. I would recommend a decentralized VCS anyway (Mercurial, Bazaar, Git).
You could consider describing how do you want to achieve what you want (different app versions with different feature sets) to get a more reasonable advice
If you use Perforce, you can use different mappings between the depot and your workspaces and do something like:
depot/
common/
platform1/
someportedfile
platform2/
someportedfile
and have it mapped in your workspace to:
platform1/
someportedfile
common/
platform2/
somtportedfile
common/
I'm trying to implement a version control system, but as most of us know designers don't feel comfortable with version control systems. I'm looking for a solution mostly for our designers using Photoshop, Flash and other design tools.
It's not a big deal to use a version control system, like VSS 2005, with our frontend and backend coders, but we have some serious problems with our designers. They mostly refuse to use version control systems, and they are right at some points, mostly on productivity level. They mostly work on more than one file, and on more than one application like Photoshop and Flash.
I don't know if version controlling is the right answer or not. Maybe we have to implement a backup system, but there has to be a versioning system, I think. I and our designers are very tired of doing the same thing or going back to the previous designs over and over again.
It would be wonderful to know how digital agencies overcome this problem. If version controlling is the answer, please share your tips on how to make designers comfortable with version controlling.
EDIT 1: Maybe it would be great to have a solution like Dropbox, as it doesn't disturb you with check-ins/check-outs. All you have to do is to open up a file, work on it and save it, the rest is handled by Dropbox.
EDIT 2: We are on Windows, so no chance to implement anything other than Windows support :(
Thanks...
I haven't actually ever done this with graphic designers, but is it possible that Subversion's WebDAV support might work for them? You can mount a WebDAV share as a drive under Mac OS X and Windows XP & Vista, I believe. Each save becomes a new revision in the repository.
And as for your second, hidden question: Yes, you do need to implement a backup system. At least if you value your data.
Adobe has it's own version control, Version Cue, which is bundled with the Creative Suite package. http://www.adobe.com/products/creativesuite/versioncue/sdk_overview/ Apparently, Eclipse can plug into this. I haven't tried it extensively, but I know it integrates nicely into the file dialog in Creative Suite.
NOTE: Version Cue has been discontinued by adobe after the release of CS5:
http://www.adobe.com/products/adobedrive/
Adobe Version Cue maybe?
You might want to try subversion because there are plugins for windows explorer and max OS X finder. integration with the filesystem has been a big help for me on projects where non-developers had to work with source control. This includes projects that have had designers.
Another key thing that helped was having a good directory structure for the files the designers and other non-developers worked with.
I just came accross ConceptShare and it's pretty great...it's not automated version control but you could use it for that and it's a great way to collect and document feedback.
You can try Subversion (installed on a local or remote server) plus Adobe Creative Suite plug-in that would face the designers - Pixelnovel Timeline
It's compact, has previews of all versions (submitted via the plug-in), works for Photoshop, Illustrator & InDesign.
If developers also use Subversion, everything (code & design) can be kept in one place.
Instead of trying to integrate a version control system with lots of applications on different operating systems, you might want to have a look at copy-on-write file systems such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ext3cow. That way your designers won't even notice a difference; all they will have to do is save their work to a network share on a linux/samba server using ext3cow.
I'm both a designer and coder. I usually version control code (text data) with git, and simply use "save as" with a version name for graphics (binary data). And I run Apple's Time Machine on top of all that, for safety.
To me, version control on graphic files would just be a burden. I'd have to roll back to see changes, and you wouldn't even get one of the great features of version control: see the changes you did in a specific commit just by looking at diffs. The log feature is nice though, to see how you progressed in time, and notes, but to me personally it's not worth it.
Take a look at Perforce - it has a plugin and tools that allow you to use it from within designer tools such as Photoshop, its also super fast and integrates well with Visual Studio - runs on Windows as well as Linux
What I did once was create a "Snapshot" shortcut on the desktop that added and committed everything from a specific directory.
If every designer commits to their own branch (trivial with a DVCS but easy with SVN too) there will be no conflicts, and the cross-branch merging can be done at intervals by someone who isn't afraid of it.
I've been having my eyes on GridIron's Flow for a while now. It looks like a competent version control suite that has some neat asset management features such as visualization on graphics between versions and relationships between different assets. Flow has support for handling files for adobe photoshop, illustrator, flash etc. However as of now (early january) GridIron hasn't released Flow yet other than having to announce the beta program.
Most digital agencies that I know of that mainly do web development use Subversion for version control. To avoid conflicts on image files an artist will lock the files he or she will work on. That way, another artist won't do the mistake of overwriting changes. This requires some coordination among artists and devs so that noone steps on anyone shoes. Also, if someone forgets to unlock, there is the possibility to break locks.
If you're into distributed version control you might want to take a look at Mercurial as it has good support for Windows and has some neat cheat sheets. The Ruby kids are using git but is rather lacking in Windows.
Before using version control with artists, at least make sure they know the basics of version control and let them fool around with it in a sandbox. Also make sure they've set up some basic rules of conduct when collaborating with each other and interacting through version control (i.e. ways to make sure they don't destroy each others works or step on each others toes).
Say a development team includes (or makes use of) graphic artists who create all the images that go into a product. Such things include icons, bitmaps, window backgrounds, button images, animations, etc.
Obviously, everything needed to build a piece of software should be under some form of version control. But most version control systems for developers are designed primarily for text-based information. Should the graphics people use the same version-control system and repository that the coders do? If not, what should they use, and what is the best way to keep everything synchronized?
Yes, having art assets in version control is very useful. You get the ability to track history, roll back changes, and you have a single source to do backups with. Keep in mind that art assets are MUCH larger so your server needs to have lots of disk space & network bandwidth.
I've had success with using perforce on very large projects (+100 GB), however we had to wrap access to the version control server with something a little more artist friendly.
I've heard some good things about Alienbrain as well, it does seem to have a very slick UI.
GitHub recently introduced "image view modes", take a look: https://github.com/blog/817-behold-image-view-modes.
We, too, just put the binaries in source control. We use Git, but it would apply just as well to Subversion.
One suggestion I have is to use SVGs where possible, because you can see actual differences. With binaries (most other image formats), the best you can get is a version history.
A lot of the graphics type people will want something more sophisticated than subversion. While it's good for version control, they will want a content management system that allows cross-referencing of assets, tagging, thumbnails and that sort of thing (as well as versioning).
TortoiseSVN can show image revisions side-by-side, which is really useful. I've used it with different teams with a great degree of success. The artists loved having the ability to roll back things (after they got used to the concepts). It does take a lot of space, though.
Interesting question. I don't have a bunch of experience working directly with designers on a project. When I have, it's been through a contractual sort of agreement where they "delivered" a design. I have done some of my own design work for both web sites and desktop applications, and though I have not used source control in the past, I am in the process of implementing SVN for my own use as I am starting to do some paid freelance work. I intend to utilize version/source control precisely the way I would with source code. It just becomes another folder in the project trunk. The way I have worked without source control is to create an assets folder in which all media files that are equivalents of source code reside. I like to think of Photoshop PSD's as graphics source code while the JPEG output for a web site or otherwise is the compiled version.
In the case of working with designers, which is a distinct possibility I face in the near future, I'd like to make an attempt to have them "check-in" their different versions of their source files on a regular basis. I'll be curious to read what others with some experience will say in response to this.
We use subversion. Just place a folder under /trunk/docs for comps and have designers check out and commit to that folder. Works like a champ.
#lomaxx TortoiseSVN includes a program called TortoiseIDiff which looks to be a diff for images. I haven't used it but looks intriguing.
I would definitely put the graphics under version control. The diff might not be very useful from within a diff tool like diffmerge, but you can still checkout two versions of the graphic and view them side by side to see the differences.
I don't see any reason why the resultant graphics shouldn't be kept in the same version control system that the coders use. However, when you're creating graphics using PSD files or PDN files you might want to create a seperate repository for those as they have a different context to the actual end jpeg or gif that is produced and deployed with the developed application.
In my opinion Pixelapse combined with a backup solution is the best version control software for graphics that I've found thus far. It supports adobe files and a bunch of normal raster images. It has version by version preview. It autosaves when the files update(on save). It works like dropbox but have a great web interface.
You can use it in teams and share projects to different people. It also support infinite reviewers which is great for design agencies. And if you want you can publicly collaborate on projects that are "open".
Unfortunately you can't have a local pixelapse server, so for backup my current setup is that I have the Pixelapse folder(like a dropbox folder) inside a git repo for snapshot creation.
With respect to diff and merging, I think the version control is more critical for graphics and media elements. If you think about it, most designers are going to be the sole owners of a file -- at least in the case of graphics -- or at least I would think that'd be the case. I'd be curious to hear from a designer.
#Damian - Good point about the tagging and cross referencing. That's true; while I haven't working with many designers on a software development project, I have worked for a company that had a design department and know that this is an issue. Designers are still (perpetually) looking for the perfect system to handle this sort of thing. I think this is more suited to a design department for shared access, searching and versioning, etc to all assets -- where there is a business incentive to not reinvent the wheel wherever/whenever possible. I don't think it would apply for a project-oriented manner as tagging and cross referencing wouldn't be quite as applicable.
We keep the binary files and images in revision control, using Perforce. It's great!
We keep a lot of art assets, and it scales well for lots of large files. It recognizes binary files, the ones that can't be diffed, and stores them as full file copies in the back end.
It has P4V (cross-platform visual browser), and a thumbnail system so image files can be seen in the browser.
You might want to take a look at Boar: "Simple version control and backup for photos, videos and other binary files". It can handle binary files of any size. http://code.google.com/p/boar/
A free and slightly wonky solution is Adobe version Cue its comes with the Adobe Suites up to CS4 and is easy to install and maintain. Offers user level control and is artist friendly. Adobe has discontinued support though for it which is a shame. Adobe Bridge acts as the client between the user and the Version Cue server. If used properly its an inexpensive solution to version control. I use CS3 version cue with CS3 Bridge. Works great for small teams.